Fighting Imposter Syndrome and Leading with Vulnerability

0:00

CHUCK:

Hello and welcome to the Ontic Connected Intelligence Podcast. I’m Chuck Randolph, Ontic’s Chief Security Officer. Join us as we delve into valuable insights and practical advice that will empower you to navigate the complexities of modern corporate security and risk. We’re here to share knowledge from experienced leaders and innovators in the field. All right, get settled and let’s dive in. Allison Makalik is a seasoned leader with over a decade of experience in the pre-sales and solution engineering field. Known for her strategic mindset and emotional intelligence, Allison is deeply committed to empowering others and helping them find their voice. She founded the WISE chapter at salesforce.org, coaches with the Pre-Sales Collective, and co-created 4Under3, where she co-hosts the Impostor Talks podcast and facilitates Fight Your Impostor workshops for ERGs worldwide. Oh my gosh. Guided by her core values and fairness and vulnerability, Allison brings ethos to her role as Director of Solutions at, wait for it, Ontic, inspiring others through her work and leadership. I’m excited, by the way. Allison, thank you, and welcome as an Ontician to your own Ontic Connected Intelligence Podcast.

ALLISON:

Hey, thanks, Chuck. So happy to be here. This is fun. It’s kind of like, what’s that one movie where they keep going in the dreams and deeper, deeper?

CHUCK:

Yeah, that is us. We’re in a dream within a dream and thinking about our neighbors. I’m honestly, I’m really excited about this one. We are. I know this is going to kind of date the show, but we’re right at the holiday season. And I can’t think of a better kind of topic as people are coming and they’re reflecting, having a cup of coffee with themselves and thinking about them. You know, there’s just so much. And to talk about, you know, leadership, mental health, overcoming imposter syndrome. This is exciting, especially for a podcast where we normally talk about very dark, dangerous and sometimes deadly things.

ALLISON:

I’m happy. I’m happy to be here. You know, at the end of the day, what we’re doing is so important, but we also have to remember we are human beings and everyone listening is a human being also doing this very important, sometimes, you know, really intense work. So we have to remember we’re still humans and human feelings and emotions are going to come up and that’s okay.

CHUCK:

Feelings.

ALLISON:

Feelings.

CHUCK:

My wife just is going to call me and say, see, I told you you had them. Allison, I mean, I know you, we work together, and I’m fortunate to kind of interact with you on a regular basis. But for those who don’t and are listening in, do you mind just give us, I gave the preamble, but give us a little more, like give us a little bit behind the curtains, if you will, of how you came to be who you are and got to the company.

ALLISON:

Oh yeah, thank you so much. So I have actually worked with a lot of folks here since 2015 at a different tech startup. And fun fact, this time, Nine years ago, I guess, in 2015, I was Luke’s secret Santa. He doesn’t remember, but I had him. Yep. And I had to ask, and I was being super secret, trying to find out different things about him. And they’re like, why do you want to know about Luke? And I was like, why do you want to know? Leave me alone.

CHUCK:

Why are you asking?

ALLISON:

So I was his secret Santa. I can’t remember what I got him, but I remember it being a good gift.

CHUCK:

It was spectacular, I’m sure.

ALLISON:

Yeah, it had to have been, but it was really fun. I was in pre-sales then. It was my very first pre-sales role ever. And I had no idea what I was doing. None. I came from a marketing strategy background, but I love presenting. I’m a natural born hand bone. That’s what I’ve said for years. And so it was a very natural transition and it was a really safe space at Sprinklr to kind of learn and what are we doing? And then I got to be really good friends with many people here and almost every year at the beginning of the year, Luke would just check in and say, hey, like we’ve rented his RV before. So we’ve stayed friends. And this year in particular, he said, hey, doing my annual check-in, how we doing? And I said, you know what, Luke? I think it’s time to talk. I think I’m ready. You know, I’ve been at Salesforce, you know, for almost five years and I kind of know who I am as a leader and I’m, I’m ready to dive in and I’m ready to kind of put my mark on Ontic. And then here I came.

4:33

CHUCK:

Let me ask you a question. Um, and anyone that knows me knows I’ve immediately gone off script. So, um, Talk to me about your aha moments, you know, like, I heard you like, I’m ready. What, like, is there, you know, I think we have these moments in our life when we’re able to step back and say, look, something’s happening in my life. And there’s, you know, options, decisions to be made. I mean, tell me about that aha moment in which things were right.

ALLISON:

Oh my gosh. Okay. So I actually talked about this on a podcast just last week. So I will share with you again, but I don’t know if you’re familiar with masterclass. Um, it’s, it’s one of my faves and I was listening, it was last December in December and in Denver for a leader onsite. And I was listening to Whitney Wolf Hurd, and she’s the creator of Bumble, and she was telling her story. And I was so moved, and I was crying, getting ready in the hotel room, in the bathroom, to go and then be a leader all day. And I know who I am. I’m a feeler. I’m a 98% feeler on Myers-Briggs. I’m a heart leader. I’m empathetic. I am a human being. And I knew those things. But hearing Whitney talk about it, she was saying that she wanted Bumble to be different. And she wanted to be able to be herself in a professional world. You can’t be insane and crazy, but you can be professional, but let your personality shine through. She said that she would be on these all hands and she would start crying when something emotional happened or something good or something hard. She said people would come up to her after and they’d say, Oh, Whitney. Oh, I don’t know. She’d say, Watch. When you are a vulnerable leader, watch what is given back to you. That was the spirit of this company, and tenfold was given back to her. People gave their heart to the company, and they were vulnerable with each other. It was this incredible culture that she built all the way up. Obviously, we know her story. She had her baby when she did the stock, all of that. I remember thinking, That’s who I am. That is who I am as a leader, as a person. And I remember at the time telling a leader at Salesforce, and they said, Oh, no, no, no. Oh, we don’t. No, no, no, no. And I was like, we can’t cry. And they’re like, no, no, no, no, no.

CHUCK:

There’s no crying in baseball.

ALLISON:

There’s no crying. And I was like, you know what? I think it might be time. I love, you know, the company and the culture, all of that. But for me, and that aha moment for me was, I think I need to go to a smaller company. I think I need to go to a smaller where I’m, where we’re going to have fun and we’re going to build something great. But we can still, I can cry and it’ll be okay. And that was it. That was it for me.

CHUCK:

That’s interesting. I mean, a lot of people that listen in on this podcast, obviously, you know, we’re coming from the security space, the risk space, the intelligence space. I’m going to say this, I’ll probably get emails, crandolph@ontic.co, we can be a stodgy crew, if you will, you know, we can be and I think it’s just the nature of the game. Sometimes things get sticky and dicey. And you know, you kind of got to bring some type of game face on I mean, how, how And I’ll get to Connected Intelligence, I’ll get to all that. But I’m like, I’m just clear, like I have this, like, how do we balance our natural self in those in those moments where we need to put your armor on and say, look, I need to be here and represent calm, and many things for people to put this organization in a calm place. I mean, that’s, that’s a lot of mental. That’s a lot of mental buildup, I guess it would happen over the years.

ALLISON:

Right. And that is a, that’s a fantastic question, especially for this space where you do have to be calm and you are protecting people. I’d say the number one thing that I hear from leaders all across the world, I talk to CEOs a lot on my podcast, and I’ll talk about that in a second. Obviously it might not make sense to start crying, right? Like that’s an extreme example. That is a heart.

CHUCK:

Yes.

ALLISON:

Right. You can email me if you want to talk about crying. But I would say when you are vulnerable and you’re leading with authenticity, I think that comes through. So you might be the hardest, toughest. However, if you are open and saying, this is really hard for me, This situation is really hard. What we’re doing is hard. People cannot do this. People do not do this. People shy away from this kind of stuff and kind of flip your script a little bit to just lead with a little bit of authenticity and a little bit of vulnerability. I think that goes miles, and I’ve seen it work time and time again.

CHUCK:

I mean, look, we’re in an industry, and I’m going to include the first responders and many, that our job is to run to the issue, not away from it. And I think there’s a difference. You say vulnerable to a security practitioner, and he or she might think of it like, wait, vulnerable. We’re supposed to protect from vulnerabilities. But I think I love what you’re saying. Be vulnerable and authentic. Like, look, things are happening, and it’s not good. And these aren’t normal things. And it’s OK to have the feels, if you will.

10:12

ALLISON:

And that’s okay. 100% one thing we teach. Actually, we can just go there. Let me explain why I have this knowledge. Would that be helpful? Well, obviously I’m a big deep feeler kind of gal. So that was something that was pretty apparent. But I also love working with people. I love leading people. And I also love taking on side projects. And what happened a couple years ago, after I helped co-found the WISE, the Women in Solution Engineering at Salesforce.org, I started realizing, okay, Many women that I’m working with are experiencing imposter syndrome, and it actually skyrocketed during the pandemic. Just a quick stat, I think that it raised 265% in Google alone over the past five years of people asking about imposter syndrome. What is it? How do I fight it? How do I combat it? These things. Actually, full circle moment, a woman I used to work with at Sprinkler with everybody, a lot of folks here, her name is Hannah Bloeking. She and I were talking about, yeah, she’s my co-host and my co-founder of, we called it Four Under Three because at the time we had four kids under three, which is a lot of imposter syndrome right there.

CHUCK:

I was wondering.

ALLISON:

Yep. A little crazy, but we created this workshop based on a lot of engagement, based on a lot of questions, based on a lot of vulnerability in the term of imposter syndrome world, obviously not an Ontic world. But, you know, raise your hand if you’ve ever felt like you had to do perfect something and you weren’t allowed to ask for help. And, you know, right. And the whole group raises their hand. So then that naturally we would do that with the PreSales Collective. And then at first we were just tailored towards women. And then something really interesting happened. We opened it up for men, for women, for everyone. And we actually heard from a lot of men saying, I’ve been feeling this my whole career. I did not know there was a word for it. And we said, OK, there’s something here. Let’s kind of dive in. And so we both were working full time jobs. Both were moms of two. And we still felt so compelled to help people with their imposter syndrome. And the number one thing is talking about it and being open to saying, I don’t have all the answers. I just need to get this off my chest. And that alone can help fight your imposter syndrome.

CHUCK:

There’s something to that, too. And I believe there’s a Buddhist philosophical idea that if you name the mountain, it’s much easier to climb. So I think at the risk of sounding elementary, I mean, it is. I mean, the first step is naming it. I mean, look, I’m curious to know your observations about imposter syndrome in the security industry now that you’re tangential to it, because I think there’s a lot of, you come to the job and there’s an assumption that you are everything security. You know, and that’s, that’s a heavy load. I mean, that’s a heavy load. So sometimes I think, uh, I think being able to, to kind of, um, come back from that and recognize like, I’m not everything it’s okay. I mean, you know, what, what’s your observations on this industry, especially given the expertise with imposter syndrome.

ALLISON:

So I will tie it back to, we talked to a lot of veterans on the podcast. So my father-in-law, his name is George Randall. He’s a veteran. He wrote a book called the talent war, and it’s looking at the lens of HR through the army essentially, and how you’re a team and you’re only as strong as your weakest link and all those different things that you learn. And so he actually helped connect us to a lot of veterans. And so I’ve been lucky enough to talk and kind of learn, especially when they become civilians, and then the imposter syndrome they feel in these security roles. And so there’s this one woman, and I’ll have to put it in the show notes, her episode. And she was a colonel, and she’s incredible. And she has all these accolades, all these awards, has done all these amazing things. And she said even for her to then come into the boardroom and have to present and have to protect, she said imposter syndrome for the first time would just consume her. Because she was like, I belong not here. What am I? But she had to learn. And she actually speaks about this. She had to learn that her talents, whatever they are, are valuable in this moment. And here’s why. And so what she did is she had what she called a green folder, literally an actual green folder. And she would write down all these things of what made her qualified, of what, even if she didn’t know the answer, she knew how to get the answer. And she did this, this, this, and she is qualified to be in this room to help these people in this situation. And before any meeting, she said she would stand outside the door and she would read her bullet points. She would close her folder and she would walk in the room. And she would be able to present and to help. And then she’d set the green tape, the folder on the table, and she would not touch it the whole time. So then people are like, what’s in that green folder? But she said for her, it was the representation of. I know how to help, and I know these skills that I have. So in this world, in this security space, I might not know the exact answer right now. However, I can bring my experience, and we can work together to figure out an answer. And I think of that a lot, especially being now at Ontic working here. It’s like, okay, I don’t have any past experience in the security space, but I have my green folder, and I can bring that and show up in that way, and it helps.

16:04

CHUCK:

I love that too, especially like the folder or the thing as a reminder, a reminder of what your core value that you’re bringing, as you say, like my core values, you know, synchronizing or communicating or connecting or whatever that is. Like it might seem overwhelming when I walk in the room, but that, that reminder or that quiet moment before I walk into remind myself, this is my superpower in what I do best and then go in and do it. What other I mean, I love the podcast. I mean, what other themes and what other like, have you pulled from the episodes and that you give to people as like tools and things they can do to kind of combat this?

ALLISON:

So the fun thing about imposter syndrome, it’s kind of like fight club. No one wants to talk about it. And especially as you get higher in your career or your job is more important or what you do is literally protecting people. No one wants to admit that, Hey, I might not know the answer. Right. So the very first thing we recommend Obviously being completely open to you know six hundred people might not be the best space but getting a mentor or a trusted advisor just someone that you can get some feedback off of is very important and some of the highest leaders we talked to they have mentors too and it’s almost like you think that i only need mentors early in my career it’s like no no no you still You still need to find those people that you respect and that you trust. And so that’s one of our actionable takeaways. Find yourself. It doesn’t have to be official. It doesn’t have to be, will you be my mentor? It’s just someone that you look up to, that’s going to be honest with you and that can just, you can check in and you can have that whatever capacity that is, I’d say that’s a must do right off the bat. So action number one.

17:54

CHUCK:

Well, let me ask you a quick side question on that. In your mind, is there points in your career, especially thinking in terms of imposter syndrome and where you’re going, where you need a coach as opposed to a mentor, or are they one and the same in your mind?

ALLISON:

Oh, yeah. Honestly, I think at this point in my career, it’s kind of the same. Kind of the same thing. Um, when I was younger, you know, back in my early career, I did an official mentorship program and I was like, help me. I know nothing. But now it’s kind of like you come more as equals, but it’s a safe space to bounce things off of. And honestly, George, the one I was talking about earlier, George Randall, I call him up sometimes and I’m like, I need you to be so honest with me and just pretend I’m not a feeler. Just give me the feedback of what’s going on. And he’s that for me. And then I have another mentor coach named Christina, and I’ll call her and it’s completely different, but it’s what I needed for her at that time. So I kind of have this little army for myself that I go to to check in, because maybe it might not be appropriate to be super vulnerable with my team in that moment. I need to check myself first.

CHUCK:

How can we be vulnerable to that feedback? I mean, again, I’m thinking about this industry and I’m, you know, we are, you know, on a security podcast and we’re talking about imposter syndrome and leadership and all these things and Now I need you to give me feedback. You’re my mentor. You know, my ego is good. Hubris is going to have a play. I mean, well, how do you, how do you coach people and help them like realize, like it will be fine and you’ll survive it. You know, what’s, what’s your thoughts on that?

ALLISON:

Yeah. I think sometimes in these moments that you’re choosing, especially if you’re feeling imposter syndrome, right. If you’re feeling it, I think that’s your time to maybe check your ego at the door, because there’s something inside of you there that’s wanting to talk about it. Something that’s wanting that you’re feeling. Here’s another thing. When people don’t talk about it and they pretend like they don’t have imposter syndrome, and maybe you don’t, maybe you’re the lucky 30% of people right now, that latest study said 70% of people have experienced it in their lifetime. So maybe for you, it’s a different feeling. It’s perfectionism or you’re a superhero or you’re, you know, whatever that there’s different words that we say in the, in the workshop, maybe that’s true for you. then great, maybe you can help someone else if they’re feeling it, or maybe, you know, maybe you can be the guide. But if you are the 70% of people in any field, even if you’re security, then you’re going to have to find someone that you trust and that you’re okay getting feedback from.

21:09

CHUCK:

Yeah, I love it. I mean, feedback was, it’s a learned thing, you know, it’s like an apple, you can catch it. Eat what you want off of it, consume it. And if something about it you don’t like, you always have the option to throw it away or not accept it. I’m, you know, but it’s, it’s hard. I mean, it’s to get to a point where like, I’m going to take your whole feedback and, and, you know, look, um, at one point I was a redheaded Scorpio, you know, so I can, those things you’ve got one has to learn. Um, Well, let me switch tacks just for a minute because I realized who I have on the phone or on this, on the podcast here. And I want to talk about leadership for a minute. We’re in a state of perpetual permacrisis. We’ve talked about it at Ontic. I mean, I know it’s kind of an overused word, but we’ve just had a terrible assassination involving a CEO. We’ve got issues in Syria, Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Hamas, workplace violence, you name it, it’s happening. And in this as leaders, we need to make sure that mental health is part of our conversation. It’s not one of those like, you can have a mental health day when this is over, it’s never likely going to be over. And if so, there’s, you know, the breaks are far and few between. What’s your, what’s your lived experience? And what have you learned from the pod and everything else to help leaders help make that discussion pivotal. Like, it is an important discussion. I believe that to my core, and it’s something that we have to bring to our leadership, our leadership bag, if you will.

ALLISON:

I think that just, you know, I was an individual contributor for years before I became a leader. You know, naturally, a lot of us are. I think the easiest thing, people think it has to be this big, grand, you know, we need to do it, you know, all the engagement surveys, things like that. Those things are great at a company level. I think what you hear more and more is people leave leaders, they don’t leave companies.

CHUCK:

Yes.

ALLISON:

I saw something the other day on LinkedIn and it said, people don’t leave because it’s too hard. People leave because it felt like what they did didn’t matter. And I think the person who’s making you feel like you matter is your leader. So even if something like this doesn’t come natural to you, something like, you know, checking in. Or at the beginning of a weekly one-on-one, talking about something personal, not just immediately jumping into work. It’s like, we have to remember at the end of the day, like we are all human beings on this earth walking around. Like right now, yes, I look like, oh yes, put together. My child is asleep in bed sick. He’s home, right? However, we were able to talk about that at the beginning of this and kind of level set that yes, we are doing big things and we are doing hard, amazing things, but we’re still human. And as a leader, my job is for my team who reports to me, Hey, how was your weekend? Hey, what’s going on with you? Hey, you seem a little tired today. Are you okay? Did something happen? I mean, that can literally be all it is because I have also been on the opposite end of that, where you get on, you just had a huge win or some kind of amazing protection happened. And then they’re just like, all right, and it’s like, Wait, we have some things going on. Five minutes at the top of a call can make someone’s day different.

CHUCK:

Yeah, I agree. And in meaning it. I mean, I think like you said earlier, you’ve got to mean it and you’ve got to be authentic. Not just like, hey, How are you today? Yeah. Great. Anyways, let me tell you all the things we’re doing wrong. I mean, I think, you know, you have to take time and pause and listen and mean it for sure.

ALLISON:

Right. I just, I just keep coming back. And so I’m in the pre-sales world. Right. And so I used to present and think I had to be like, hello, my name is Allison. Let us jump in to the platform today. And then I was like, wait a second at the, you Chuck, yes, you are a chief security officer, but also you are a human being. And let me take a minute to make a connection with you. Fun fact, I’m also a Scorpio. Okay, I know where you’re coming from. But I realized as even if I’m presenting to CEOs, or I’m presenting to, you know, the entire executive board of a huge multimillion dollar company, which I’ve done in my career, the truer that I was myself, you know, and obviously you can tailor it to who you’re talking to and you get a pretty quick feel. It’s, it’s like, you don’t have to fake it. And I think people nowadays, especially it’s like, we can sniff out when someone’s being fake pretty quickly.

CHUCK:

I agree.

ALLISON:

Yeah. And it’s more just like, okay, if you need to be calm and collected and you need to have this to, you know, this is who you need to be. Maybe just like a fun, personal, slice of life of how your morning’s going just to let people know that, Hey, I’m a human too.

26:19

CHUCK:

Yeah. And I, and I take from that too. Like you’re not saying like you, you need to overreact and you just, but just be human in the moment. Say, Hey, how are you doing? No, seriously. How are you doing? I mean, that means, it means a lot. And I think you’re right. It creates a calm, it creates a more open conversation and let’s almost like a little bit of, a little bit of steam out. Like, okay, we got a lot going on, but we’re going to take a moment, take a breath. And now we’re going to. So I think that’s important. Um, you know, we’re at the end of, uh, we’re at the end of the, of the calendar year, if you will. And, you know, we kind of go into those moments where people are thinking about them, you know, think, thinking about their lives, their way forward, what I’m doing, what my, what my goals and things are next year. And, you know, uh, I would say probably self doubt will play into some people’s conversations with themselves. I mean, I’d love for you to share some, like, you know, advice for those like small inner voices that are telling you like, Oh man, this is going to get screwed up. And you can’t, I mean, you know, we could say that’s imposter syndrome, but it’s, it’s also just like those, like, you know, those moments I get like self doubt in, in, in self worth discussions. I mean, how, how do you, what have you learned and how do you coach people in that?

ALLISON:

Yeah. So this is something, And I don’t want to get too woo-woo, but there are actual studies.

CHUCK:

Go ahead. I’m going to get some coffee while you do it.

ALLISON:

Everyone listening is like, Oh, here we go. No, I’m just kidding. But it’s more of just like, there are actual studies that talk about the power of how your mindset is and your brain so much so that on LinkedIn, I follow Sarah Blakely. She’s the CEO of Spanx. She has a new curriculum that’s getting added to schools and colleges about the power of your thoughts. And she just posted about it yesterday, about when you, that self doubt and different things. So what we do with our kids is we say affirmations every night and they have their own and we do that for them. Noah is curious. Noah is strong. Noah is smart. Noah is brave. And we have, we have a whole list. Davies, confident, silly, kind, curious, you know, we do that to them. And then in the morning we make them tell it back to us. They are three and five years old. And they’ll say, I am smart. I am kind. I am brave. And that’s Noah’s. But you know, Davies is different. And it’s like we go through. But it’s so funny at how these basic things that you can teach a child, you kind of have to remember that they work for adults, too. So whatever my advice, honestly, for you listening, you’re like, who is this woman in 2025? Get your own green folder. Get your own, you know, a woman on my team, Jordan, she calls it a smile file. If you get a shout out or something good happen, take a screenshot, add it into a folder. And then when you’re feeling self-doubt or you’re feeling that imposter syndrome, go and read what people wrote about you. Go and read, hey, I know what I’m doing. You know, throughout your career, that could be, honestly, your affirmations. That could be a smile file. I call it a good job folder. I think every single person needs to have one to remind themselves that they are capable, that they belong, that they can do these things, and if they don’t know the exact answer, it’s okay that they can ask for help. And whatever that is for your brain that works for you, I think you need to make that a priority to put that in action in January.

29:55

CHUCK:

Well, I think in some ways you’re talking about like manifestation and again, not to sound woo woo, but there’s some science around that too. You know, and I’ve read reports where they’re like, what, you know, if you think about buying a yellow VW, you’re going to start seeing them. Yes. There is something to saying, like, if I’m going to put these things in my subconscious, I’m going to talk about them to myself and remind myself of that. I’ll start seeing that more as opposed to the negative, which also unfortunately works as well. Amazing, amazing. I really enjoyed the time we’ve had. I could expand this on, but I’ll get in trouble. I want you, we ask everybody, even Onticians when they come on, what does Connected Intelligence mean to you? So Allison, what what does that mean for you?

ALLISON:

So I am in the pre-sales world. So I get a front row to how we talk about on tick to our clients and to prospects and things like that. I think the power of Connected Intelligence really goes back to being able to remove those silos inside of your company and take action quicker. Like I have heard stories even being here, I started in August, some really powerful, incredible stories where legal was able to immediately start working with HR, immediately able to start working with security to take action in things that would take two weeks in 10 minutes. Like that is crazy. And when you think about the ROI of that, that is saving lives, that is protecting people, that is literally changing the rest of someone’s life if you help them in a positive way. And I think it’s so powerful. And I’m a storyteller by nature. So I gravitate to the stories. And I think when I just think of connected intelligence, I literally think of the humans that are being impacted every single day by having a tool that they can use that can make a positive impact that day. Not 10 years from now, not five years. It’s like, no, okay, let’s do it. And I just, I really love it. I feel like I’m kind of hit the jackpot because I’m with my friends. We’re making a difference. We are doing incredible things in the world and I’m getting to be the kind of leader that I enjoy being with a lot of my friends who are incredible leaders too. So long way of saying, Thank you. That’s what Connected Intelligence means to me.

CHUCK:

So thank you for asking. So if people are interested to follow four under four under 30 and find more about the workshops, it’s like, where do they go for that? Like that non-Ontic stuff? Because I have a feeling people will be curious about more about that.

ALLISON:

Yeah. So we, thank you. On LinkedIn, it’s just linkedin.com/fourunderthree. You said 30, but it’s three.

CHUCK:

Could you imagine?

ALLISON:

Four kids under 30. Whew. Okay. That’d be a lot.

CHUCK:

I just thought about what I said there.

ALLISON:

Apologies. No, it’s okay. And then on podcasts, we have Apple, we have Spotify, we have YouTube. The podcast is called Imposter Talks. And actually we are kicking off season two in the beginning of next year with our own Trevor, another audition. He’s going to be our first episode. Yes. And you know what, Chuck, I think we’d like to have you on after this conversation.

CHUCK:

That’d be fun. And you and Hannah do a great job. I mean, when I knew you were coming on, I went out listen, I’ve shared the podcast with some folks because it is it is a real thing we face. I mean, it is part of I think, it’s an underbelly of, of, you know, trying to manage and mitigate risk. And we’re fortunate to have somebody to come on and kind of unpack it. So, Allison, thank you so much for being at Ontic. And thank you for being on Ontic’s Connected Intelligence podcast.

ALLISON:

Thank you so much, Chuck. This was the highlight of my entire week. So thank you.