Executive Protection Strategies to Combat Evolving Risks in Today’s World with Teneo’s Jonathan Wackrow

0:00

Chuck Randolph:

Hello and welcome to the Ontic Connected Intelligence Podcast. I’m Chuck Randolph, Ontic’s Chief Security Officer. Join us as we delve into valuable insights and practical advice that will empower you to navigate the complexities of modern corporate security and risk. We’re here to share knowledge from experienced leaders and innovators in the field. All right, get settled and let’s dive in. Jonathan Wackrow is the Chief Operating Officer at Teneo Risk and Global Head of Security at Teneo, where he leads enterprise risk management and advises CEOs, boards, and leadership teams on corporate resilience and crisis preparedness. A former U.S. Secret Service Special Agent, he served on the Presidential Protection Detail, managing high-level security operations worldwide. Jonathan is also a CNN Law Enforcement Analyst A recognized authority on enterprise risk, serves as a commissioner on the CSIS Commission for Hostage Taking, and as the former chair of the ASIS International Executive Protection Council, which is outstanding. By the way, thank you, my friend, for your service to the community there. Jonathan, welcome to your first ever Ontic Connected Intelligence podcast.

Jonathan Wackrow:

Chuck, thank you so much. It’s really great to be here. And it’s great to be here talking about executive protection at this specific moment in time. And I think that, you know, by the time this this podcast airs, most people will have, you know, the context of why this conversation is so relevant But it’s important for our industry to really dive deep into what is going on today, really not just for the near horizon issues, but really what is the longevity for corporate security programs and executive protection programs with this very dynamic threat environment that’s surrounding us.

Chuck Randolph:

Yeah, I want to jump right into that. But before we do, just for the folks who maybe haven’t seen you on TV or haven’t read or interacted with you or have had the pleasure of doing that. Can you walk us a little bit, you know, I gave the little bit of the intro and where you but kind of walk us through your career and how you got to your place at Teneo and, and advising boards and CEOs and things.

Jonathan Wackrow:

No, that’s a great question. Because it’s sort of the origin story, right. And I think all of us have it, you know, and I’m always fascinated to hear how different people came into the industry, how they evolved to get to where they are. So, you know, my backstory is, you know, after college, I was in the private sector for a short time before being recruited into the US Secret Service. Spend fourteen years in the secret service first as a criminal investigator and your protection agent in new york city in the new york field office. After spending multiple years there my phase one i had the opportunity to go to Washington DC spend time at the department of homeland security on Secretary Chertoff’s detail became a shift leader on that detail. I spent almost a year there prior to going to the Presidential Protection Division, where I spent just about five and a half years, all of which was during the Obama administration. And through that five and a half years, I just had this remarkable experience to not only be a working shift agent around the President and First Lady, But also to work presidential protection operations, really the backbone of what makes the Secret Service in that detail operate. So having and learning those competencies actually made me such a better agent as I was working the shift. And then eventually I went back to lead school and became a lead qualified agent around the President of the United States and able to, you know, lead and execute his, you know, protective missions, you know, literally domestically or anywhere around the world. So after spending about 14 years in the Secret Service, I decided that I had done everything that I wanted to do in the government at that point in time and see how those skills could translate into the private sector. So I came back to New York City, started working for a law firm, a risk management division within a law firm. went to a couple smaller boutique risk management firms in and around New York before landing at Teneo. And for me, coming to Teneo was really a capstone for me, both in my personal life and professional life. One, I worked for police commissioner Bill Bratton. Bill, for many of you who don’t know, was the former police commissioner of Boston where I grew up. So as a kid, I got to watch Bill Bratton give interviews. I used to read about him in the Boston Globe. So having the opportunity to now work for someone who spent 50 years in law enforcement as my direct supervisor, it was a really humbling moment. So for me, having the opportunity to come today, work with Commissioner Bratton, and the broader team that is there was just remarkable and a great honor for me. So I’ve been here, actually, I think today might be my seventh year at Teneo. And the growth and what we’ve built as a team has been remarkable. And what it’s allowed me to do in my position as the Chief Operating Officer is really engage with the industry and build strategic partnerships with Ontic, with others, and really learn, you know, and delve into what is going on day to day across our industry, and really looking towards the future of where we’re going.

Chuck Randolph:

Yeah, I mean, sometimes I think you get lucky where you get opportunities to bring your full, your full career person to bear, meaning like operations, you know, for you, the pointy end of things with protecting operations, risk management, and now come to a place where you can weaponize that, if you will, no pun intended here for across the board to help other people figure that, figure out their, figure out their, their risks, how to mitigate them on top of that, being able to work with a hero. I mean, that it’s a no brainer, my friend, I mean, in, in congratulations on seven years.

6:19

Chuck Randolph:

Let me ask the question that everyone right now is like, get to the question Randolph, like, we have had a tragic event in which we’ve seen the assassination of a CEO. I mean, we were I’ve talked to several, I’ve talked to many folks about this, you know, we had earlier this year, we had attempted assassinations of a former and now current, soon to be president. A lot of organizations, I’m sure you heard this as well ask after that, like, hey, What could this happen here? Could this happen to us? The universe has answered and said, Yes, it can. You know, these gaps that people have talked about for a long, this has happened. And we saw the tragic death of UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson. And, you know, it highlights the traditional high risk that that we all face. I mean, you’re talking to a lot of people about this, I’m sure. And how are you talking to them? How are you, how are you advising them to adjust their, their threat assessments, their teams, and the way they do things?

Jonathan Wackrow:

Well, the first thing I say is just reminding everybody that threats never remain at rest, right? They’re constantly evolving. They’re constantly trying to find that pathway to exploit a vulnerability. So with that as the context, when I’m talking to corporate security leaders, executive protection leaders, I’m reminding them to go back in their risk profiles and their threat assessments really reassess both the static and dynamic factors that they use to contribute to those assessments. And when I’m talking about like, I really want them to focus more on the dynamic factors because it’s actually relevant to what we saw with the shooting of the CEO of the UnitedHealthcare. And those dynamic factors are the things that actually are changing over time. Oftentimes, as a consultant, I’ll go in and I’ll hear corporate security team say, hey, we do an annual threat assessment. Well, that’s great, because that’s great on that singular day, on the static, static factors, but those dynamic factors get stale. The very next day, you have to keep constantly going back and reassessing those changes and you regularly evaluate what are the threats to the executives. I think when you start looking at what happened with UnitedHealthcare, considering the factors of industry controversies, right, like what is happening in that Your health care sector the focus of those those individuals and leaders from really disgruntled customers that are out there that really feel that they are being taken advantage of that coupled with public sentiment. And you know in your position within the company they become these really attractive targets for your hostile and nefarious actor so going back and looking at what do those dynamic factors mean to my threat assessment is really critical. Because then it allows you the ability to scale up. It gives you the rationale to change your protective sort of structure, add to it, add more protective intelligence, add more EP agents, be able to respond to that changing dynamic quickly because you’re using a threat-based paradigm. You’re almost doing it in real time.

Chuck Randolph:

Well, I mean, I’m often like, I mean, that threat informed, you know, I can say it here on the podcast, because these are our people, you know, threat informed, intelligence driven operations led. I think if we were in a less technical group, I just say, you know, risk informed operations led, but I think you’re absolutely right. Like what, what’s the zeitgeist we live in right now? Not just me as an individual or a CEO, but my organization, my industry, what is it living in? Or I guess what’s the meta? And then from that, what’s the data points I can pull out, the insights from that to create action so that the individual on the ground now is enabled to make a risk-based decision? Because I think a lot of people probably got phone calls and said, I need, what should I do? And their answer was, you need more bodyguards. Well, that’s not necessarily true.

Jonathan Wackrow:

That’s exactly it. You hit that point of marginal utility. There’s only so many people that you can add to a detail before it becomes detractive, before you start losing that value. The value comes from understanding exactly what the threats you’re facing each day are, how dynamically they can change, and being able to adjust your program to match that threat environment. But that’s very difficult. I mean, think about just the pressures that EP teams are under every single day, CSOs, their leadership team, how they’re trying to execute. It’s easy as a consultant for me to come in and say, hey, do this, do this, do this. it’s hard to put that into practice in some organizations. You can’t just turn the switch on overnight. Corporate leaders right now, and specifically CSOs, they have a really challenging job ahead of them because they’re trying to manage up to the C-suite and talk about what is going on right now and what the threat environment looks like for them. While trying to manage the pyramid that’s underneath and it’s trying to execute on it in both are very hard hard there but you’re caught in the middle.

11:50

Chuck Randolph:

Well think about it you hit on something earlier as well I click. You can go out and I’m gonna use a purposeful term you can go to get bodyguards right now, you or I could probably get fifty on the phone right now but, is that sustainable because now if they’re gonna become part of an estate sustained embedded team are you gonna bring them over to a full time team or something now they need to be training. Culture all these ramp up things that could take up to eight months to get somebody fully focused and understanding of that operational environment there and as opposed to you know that I’m here in the moment to protect you. And then I think at some point you have this. An issue where you know you saw this in 9/11, you saw it in Fukushima, name your crisis and I know you see this as a crisis manager we’re gonna invest right after the issue. Well we fail to have a good conversation so within a quarter we start to uninvest in that because now we’ve lost the story or the narrative.

Jonathan Wackrow:

We start to invest in that because now we’ve we’ve lost we’ve lost the story we’ve lost the narrative that’s the protection paradox right it’s you know we’ve identified the problem we’re gonna over index on it we’re gonna build the structures and processes Then nothing happens. And then all of a sudden, because we built so quickly without adding value or discussing what the value is, it’s exactly that trick. There’s a diminishing return. And then all of a sudden, everyone’s questioning, well, why do we have to spend the money on this? Or why do we need this? Nothing has happened. And that’s the challenge. You should never just react to a situation. If you are doing that, you have to discuss what is that value proposition. If I’m a CSO or the head of a detail, every action that I take, especially post-incident, has to be value-driven. Otherwise, people are gonna see that you’re empire-building, that you’re just trying to go for more resources. I mean, listen, everyone in the world wants more funding and more resources, but how do you use that’s sustainable for the future, that continues growth, That’s, you know, that’s the secret sauce right now.

14:00

Chuck Randolph:

Well, you know, here’s an interesting question for you, Jonathan, both as a former lead for the presidential detail, but also someone who advises companies across the board. Somebody comes to you. I’m a seasoned CEO. I’m going to get to I’m a brand new CEO later, but I’m a seasoned CEO. And I come to your office. I experienced this myself in a former life, knocking on the door. The door opens. Hey, sir, how are you doing? Great. What do you and I say, what do you need right now? What’s your answer to that? Like you as a protection owner for me, the CEO in an organization, I walk in and say, Hey, this just happened. We talked about it from there. I’m like, Jonathan, what do you need right now? Or what do we need right now?

Jonathan Wackrow:

In that conversation, what I need is for you and I to be on the exact same operating plane. We both need to understand that your corporate leadership whether it’s the CEO or the CFO whoever is potentially at risk is intrinsically linked to organizational stability right so with that is the baseline. Now let’s go forward and have a conversation about how are we going to protect our corporate leaders. And why that is important and it’s important because it reinforces our own corporate resilience structured it safeguards are you are reputation it really builds the confidence of not only our employees but you for publicly traded companies that the shareholders. So we can have that conversation first then talk about the threats that were facing right cuz this is a shared fate right if i’m protecting the CEO of an organization. Her or his safety is it is my fate as well right so i have to make sure that we’re operating in unison and we clearly understand what we’re going to do together. to protect not only that individual, but their role within the organization moving forward. Then we can get into the tactical considerations of, hey, in the short term, we may need to add residential protection agents. We may need to go to a different model where we have counter surveillance teams that operate in conjunction with our over protectors that are working with the protectee at the time. But you can’t get into that tactical if there’s, you know, inequities in the way that we’re actually thinking about how this program actually operates and the value that it brings to the organization.

16:32

Chuck Randolph:

So let me ask you a quick follow up, because there’s folks out there right now who probably know they’re gonna be asked this question or they been asked this question in email or been told like we want you to come and read the CEO or have a discussion i mean how would you tell them to prepare that value proposition you’re saying like look, protection is a team effort, it’s an enterprise effort. You just happen to be part of the response of protection but I think you’re making an important statement that says let you and I get on the same page, I mean how should I not like you have the question. How would you advise somebody listening to this right now to prepare to respond to that question?

Jonathan Wackrow:

Well, they have the answers to the test, right? They know the value that they bring to an organization. What we have seen is that oftentimes their voice may not be heard or may not be understood. So in that instance, if they feel uncomfortable going directly to the CEO saying, hey, we need to have this conversation, Because they may have had this conversation five times before and it just didn’t resonate sometimes looking for your other other proxies within the organization general counsel maybe someone from the board that can help support that initiative or amplify your message internally. Again it comes down to your doing this for the right cause right you doing this to protect the organization as a whole in addition to just that individual so sometimes you have to figure out the pathway to communicate your value it may not be a straight line linear conversation you may have to build a little bit of a coalition internally of others that understand your value to raise it up and because listen. You know this, you’ve lived this in shared experiences where some corporate executives are just having an allergic reaction to protection, right? They don’t like that intrusion into their life. But how do you basically bring the value of that structure to that individual? Sometimes it’s hard one-on-one, you may have to bring in others into the conversation.

Chuck Randolph:

I mean, that’s, you know, at Ontic, we often talk about connected intelligence and, you know, connecting across, uh, you know, security across the enterprise. And I think this is a perfect example of that too. Like, look, incidents happen, you know, CEOs assassinations, and certainly a terrible example. But there’s other incidents that happen, the door opens, and you know, they always say, like, get a seat at the table. And I’ve always thought, like, just don’t get kicked out of the room after the crisis. Because I think you’re onto something there in terms of like, look, be seen as an enabler, be seen as someone who’s thinking about, look, we’re protectors by trade, we’re business folks by necessity. But that necessity helps us get into the room, helps us occasionally get at the table. And you’re on to something about, look, go find your champions. I mean, how does somebody find those champions? You know, is it an executive assistant? Like you said, is it the general counsel? Is it somebody at the board? Or is it, or is it a consultant that comes in and helps identify like you have something over here that will help you just need to listen to it?

Jonathan Wackrow:

Yeah. Well, selfishly, I’m available for those conversations. And I can provide my number and email later on. But you know, sometimes it does. And I say that a little bit tongue in cheek. But sometimes it does take an external validator, whether it’s outside counsel, a consultant, you know, some advisor to the CEO, to really, you know, reiterate the same thing that you’re saying. Maybe just in a different way that lands differently with the CEO so they actually take pause and start listening and understanding that value.

21:00

Chuck Randolph:

So let me shift gears here just for a second like now we’ve talked about the issue and then maybe incident on the moment you know in fighting through that moment saying resilient like. How should we think about these types of actions in a forward-looking aspect. And what I mean by that is how do we stay ahead of the risk? How do we stay in forecast mode? And how do we not get kicked out of the room?

Jonathan Wackrow:

Well, the way you don’t get kicked out of the room is you need to be well-informed, right? And the way that you’re going to be well-informed is by really having a robust intelligence program, right? You need to understand, as we talked about those static and dynamic factors that are in your threat assessment, you have to be constantly on top of what is changing and being able to articulate that to all of the stakeholders involved. Let’s say that you identify some ideological narratives or changes that directly impact your protectee. Well, you can’t wait on that, right? That information needs to come to you very, very quickly. You need to then develop the appropriate plan to mitigate any emerging risk or identified vulnerability, and then be able to quickly convert back to the stakeholders, hey, this is what we’re seeing. Here’s our plan. This is what we’re doing. That is a threat based methodology, right? That is using protective intelligence as a strategic tool to initiate a, you know, a strategic decision. That is literally the foundation of any EP program, or it should be at least. Yeah.

Chuck Randolph:

Yeah I absolutely agree with you and I remember a time early in my career when I mean protective intelligence just wasn’t used that much there was the idea of intelligence often it was a piece of paper that I slipped into my suit pocket things were very binary you know things were very after the fact driven. And now I mean, we’re an environment that’s so dynamic and fluid. And we have supercomputers at our fingertips in communication devices. I think you’re absolutely right. Any program must be infused with protected intelligence.

Jonathan Wackrow:

And I think, you know, just going back to the, just going back to the situation with the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. Think about the hours, not days, but the hours after that assassination. What happened online, right? You saw this overwhelming response. Unfortunately, it was the wrong response of people who were championing the shooter. They were focused against Not only united healthcare but you know the healthcare industry broadly right and then you started getting into a whole movement of corporate greed that by noon time on that day you had hundreds of thousands of people animating around and against corporate leaders and it’s only gotten worse from there. So my point is think about how fast that threat environment change not only for corporate leaders in the health care industry but the financial services sectors and other key business leaders around the United States, they’re targeted now and they’re receiving death threats every single day, but that happened instantaneously. Why? Because the digital domain allows for the rapid dissemination of information both good and bad. But you don’t in that speed at which those threats can travel and metastasize is such a challenge for corporate security leaders, EP teams, that EP agent that’s on the door of a car getting ready to walk out you walk with a protectee. They may not realize how fast that threat has traveled and how it effects their role in that moment on that day. And that is a significant challenge for our industry.

25:00

Chuck Randolph:

Think about all the people that are on the edge of radicalization and I use that term broadly to yourself radicalization and just pushed over the edge by something like that better now I mean I’m uncomfortably comfortable saying right now someone else is probably planning something would you agree with that?

Jonathan Wackrow:

I would absolutely. I talked about a lot about the pathway to violence for people right like there’s a lot of people who are starting off right now with a grievance around something let’s just take health care for a moment. Why are they all of a sudden having these ideations of violence? Then how do they get into the planning phases? How do they get into the practice to then transcend into the act of physical violence? We used to see that as sort of a natural, you know, pathway of escalation where someone individually was moving along. Now they’re forced up that continuum. Why? Because their act may be individual, But they are motivated by other groups and where are they motivated they’re motivated online they’re hearing support online whether it’s directly or through anonymous sources they feel empowered they feel emboldened they feel that they should be doing this. It’s very narcissistic by the way but that’s what’s happening and we’re seeing like this individual.

Chuck Randolph:

Yeah I mean you know often I’m gonna see what I want to see so I’m in an echo chamber and the algorithms gonna feed me and I’m sitting here thinking about like, I don’t like Jonathan Wackrow.

Jonathan Wackrow:

Which is a common theme, by the way, it’s you’re not alone.

26:32

Chuck Randolph:

Hey, I got a couple more questions I want to ask you. But I don’t want to let you go without asking you this. And you know, I think about you as a consultant and a community leader. I mean, you know, earlier, we said, Hey, there’s an older CSO. He’s been here for a while. I come in and I talked to you. What do I need? I mean, flash forward a couple months. And you’re in front of a new CEO, and it’s that 5-minute, like, you’re going to meet the CEO, you get 5 minutes. I mean, in light of, in light of all this, Jonathan, how should we be thinking about that conversation with the brand-new CEO? What does she need to know? And how do we create that synergy that you’ve been talking about?

Jonathan Wackrow:

Well, that is such a critical first conversation. It’s something that I work with my clients on because, you know, in preparing for that first conversation. And what we always say is you need to sit down, walk into that room and talk to the CEO and really present a clear overview of the security organization, its mission, vision, values, its key responsibilities, and also highlight some of the past accomplishments that you’ve had. From there, You it this is all like basic communication but you need to sit down and talk to this new CEO. About their personalized risk right it’s you don’t you don’t go in and throw down a threat assessment or your risk assessment that was done you need to sit down and describe. Elements in there that affect them personally affect their family that talks about their risk not to broker in fear but actually to have a fact based conversation that talks about those threats their position in the industry right like why elevating or sending into the role of CEO why does that change their their risk profile, maybe they came from a different industry and now they’re in one that’s highly targeted, their visibility, their optic. Talking through that, and if you only have five minutes, you have to go quickly, but what you’re going to do is you’re going to set up initially your bona fides. Why do you exist within this organization? Why is what you do in terms of threat assessments important? Because now you’ve just explained it, and then you can say, this is what we do. You can highlight the unique risks that are around the organization, things that have happened in the past, but talk about the structure moving forward and what the value of that is for not only the individual, but for the role of the CEO or CFO or whomever the executive may be.

29:04

Chuck Randolph:

Yeah, I love that. I used to hate to get the question like, what keeps you up at night, Chuck? And my response was always the same, random traffic accidents. because there are black swans, we don’t see them coming and they could have disastrous effects. Everything else we can monitor and mitigate against if allowed to do so. Let me ask you, you know, you just, by the way, and I mean that earlier, like, thank you for your, for your service to the community in terms of managing and chairing the ASIS EP Council. And I’d like to draw on your years of leadership and executive protection and just kind of sitting atop a precipice, I’m not putting you on a pedestal, but just sitting at a larger level looking across the playing field. And, you know, you’re in the business of consulting, three to five year plans are kind of out the window. So I’d ask you like, again, in light of everything we’re seeing permacrisis, Syria, the assassination of a CEO, Ukraine, Russia, China, unknown drones, all the things. What’s your outlook? In forecast, and how should we be thinking about the space of executive protection and say, the next 36 months?

Jonathan Wackrow:

That’s a great, great question. Ready to go. So how many, how many hours do we have? And can I bring in some PowerPoint slides? Listen, I’ve said this before. And you know, I’ve said it, you know, on air at CNN, I’ve said it, you know, to industry, you know, professionals, this is a seminal moment for corporate security and executive protection. Like no other time that i can even think of has so much focus been put upon our industry. So how we respond will literally dictate the future of how we are positioned within organizations right and again throughout our conversation here today we’re talking about the value proposition right. If we take this moment to be opportunistic right to empire build in the wrong way to try to get things that are unattainable for our organization our position. We will be seen purely as a cost center purely is just being opportunistic for the moment. What if we take pause and elevate our own personal positions no matter what role you have any key weather your practitioner weather your provider or your purchaser of services everyone needs to stop and think about. How are we positioning ourselves within organizations to the value proposition not just to the to the protect you to the CEO but to the overall organization. And again, it goes back to focusing and rooting everything that we do in a threat-based methodology, right? Because that’s the factual conversations that we can have, right? Everybody wants to run like these massive programs and high speed, low drag, and that’s not the reality of our industry. There are components of it that have that, but a lot of it is just the daily grind of what we need to focus on, making sure that we’re getting from point A to point B, safely, securely, that the executive is safe, that we maintain the resilience of our organization. Doing it professionally on a threat-based methodology, talking about that constantly to different internal stakeholders, the general counsel, the risk management team, the human capital team, talk about what we’re doing, why we’re doing it. Again, having that value proposition I’m doing it across our industry is extremely important this isn’t the moment for social media warriors to come out and you know you know you just you just laughing you know exactly where i’m going with that that diminishes our industry right that you know i don’t need to see somebody you know you doing these like high speed low drag dynamics with firearms on a range and talking about their That’s not what he is right he is your sort of the is the professional warrior within a within an organization that’s out there to truly protect your reputation the organization as a whole the people the process the technology that makes an organization what it is that is the value focus on that so. If we do that. The outlook for our industry looks really good, right? Because as you said, getting a seat at the table in the moment of a crisis is not difficult, right? Everyone’s going to marshal around. Keeping that seat is the challenge. And I think if we’re able to really position ourselves and elevate within organizations that everyone sees the value, then we maintain that seat. We have a voice. We expand our role organically within the organization and the industry. And so I think that there’s a very good chance that we are going to be able to achieve that, because what I’ve seen right away is the industry marshalling around that ethos. And from industry calls and ASIS and other professional organizations that are out there that are literally talking and squawking with each other about, hey, how do we position ourselves? What are you seeing? I’m in this industry. Are you seeing these same threats? Hey, we have a vulnerability here. There’s, again, I talk about the share fate within an organization it’s a shared fate within our industry right now and i see you actually winning and succeeding with that rate today.

34:27

Chuck Randolph:

Yeah I love it, I love it and I wholeheartedly agree. Let me ask you a question we ask everybody that comes on. And I think you answered it throughout but you know tell me what Connected Intelligence means to you.

Jonathan Wackrow:

So I just use the word ethos and it applies here Connected Intelligence to me is an ethos that everyone who is involved in not only corporate security but executive protection must possess again practitioner provider procure you have to have this thought around how do we. collectively share information to identify, assess, address, and respond to a multitude of threats and hazards that face us. That Connected Intelligence is the key. It is the cornerstone for what we’re doing day in and day out to be able to just survive in this dynamic threat environment that changes every single second. Connected Intelligence is critical.

Chuck Randolph:

I love it. My friend, I, aside from CNN and news and other media, where’s the best place if somebody wants to follow more and, and, you know, kind of be in that Wackrow tribe, is it LinkedIn? Is there some place?

Jonathan Wackrow:

Uh, so, uh, across social media, Instagram, Twitter, I’m always posting. I have a website, wackrow.com. Uh, pretty straightforward I post everything there but again I’m always available you know one of the things that that again my role at Teneo as the COO has allowed me to do is really delve into the industry and make your strategic partnerships and connections. that to me are invaluable. So I’m very humbled that I have this opportunity to spend time across our industry, help every single person. I think you and I know so many people having those conversations every single day around helping them out, sharing ideas, sharing thoughts, and how do we progress together as an industry and individuals is so important to me. So I always welcome the outreach from anybody in the industry.

Chuck Randolph:

I love it. And I’m grateful for you, my friend, for everything you’re doing to professionalize this, this great industry. Jonathan Wackrow, thank you so much for being on Ontic’s Connected Intelligence podcast.

Jonathan Wackrow:

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I hope you have me back soon. But this has been a great experience. Thanks, Chuck.