Codename Pale Horse: Lessons from an FBI Undercover Agent

0:00

Fred:

Hi, I’m Fred Burton here today with Scott Payne. Scott is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement investigating cases against drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He was also a SWAT team operator and instructor for firearms, tactics, and undercover operations. He is the author of the book, Codename Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis. Scott, welcome to the Ontic Connected Intelligence Podcast.

Scott:

Thank you for having me.

Fred:

Wow. I saw this book come out and we had to have you on the podcast, Scott. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how in the heck did you end up dealing with a bunch of Nazis?

Scott:

I usually start it with something along the lines of I’m not a smart man. My skill set does not lead me to Wall Street and high-end hotels. It leads me to the woods. As much as I wanted to be there with my other cohorts and undercovers, I pretty much ended up in the woods and stuff. A quick back story on me. I grew up in South Carolina. I went to college, played ball, bounced, and then I went into law enforcement. I was a cop in Greenville County, South Carolina for five years, three in uniform, two as a vice narcotics investigator, and then I applied and made it through the hiring process for the FBI. And my first office was New York City. I was actually I was actually still assigned there when 9-11 happened. It’s just the day of 9-11. I was actually undercover in San Antonio, Texas. So I did I did a quick stint in New York for for what the bureau usually gives you. I did three years and then I was on the border of Mexico for six and a half years. And then I came to Tennessee. in 2008. And that’s where I retired out of, but 28 years total law enforcement.

2:35

Fred:

Amazing career, Scott. Now, we have a tremendous amount of executive protection and corporate security folks that listen to our podcast and a lot of ultra high net worth individuals. What would be your recommendation to security professionals to kind of look for certain things to monitor threats from, let’s say in this case, neo-Nazis?

Scott:

That’s a good question. I’m sure they’re already trained up. It’s funny you say that. I actually just found out yesterday that I’m going to be going to the Dignitary Protection course put on by NYPD. That’s a good one. Yeah, I mean, they do the UN and I’m sure Secret Service will be involved, but I will throw this in there too. A lot of people don’t know this. The Secret Service handles what the Secret Service handles, but the FBI does that exact same job for the FBI director and the Attorney General of the United States. So as a SWAT guy, for I don’t know how many years total I had on SWAT in the FBI, but anytime a director or the Attorney General is coming to the division you’re in, They send out an advanced team. They’ve got 24 hour workers out of out of the Quantico, D.C. area, and they’ll meet with us. So to answer your question, I don’t it’s not like I would probably I would probably not be able to give you the direct answer you want, but I would kind of answer it like this. What does a terrorist look like? I mean, there’s no there’s no we were just putting on training the other day. for security teams at a private school. And that’s what they were all looking at me, tatted and this and the other. And they’re like, oh, you’re the bad guy. I’m like, well, you can’t go off of that. I mean, there’s there’s clean cut. There’s nice looking kids that you wouldn’t know. It’s going to be that. It’s going to be probably what they’re already trained on is just that keeping your head on a swivel, paying attention to everything. I look at it kind of like that shepherd view, like you’re a livestock guardian dog. You know, I have a pair of knees, so they watch you’re watching for any kind of movements, any strange behavior. We can get into it, but the groups, some of the groups that I infiltrated were pretty, they were getting pretty sophisticated in their training. Even so, one guy kept talking about how he could just dress like a bum or a homeless person. He said bum, not to make light of anybody in that situation. But a homeless person, he could hang out, start learning the pattern of somebody who they considered anti-fascist, most likely left. And then one day, after he gets their pattern, just come up and pop them in the back of the head with a revolver. Because that revolver doesn’t the shell casing didn’t come out and then just disappear. So, you know, I mean, look at that. That was a UnitedHealthcare that that executive just got murdered. You just got to I mean. People ask me sometimes, you know, hey, man, are you worried about you coming out and people you put in jail? Well, yeah, there’s always a chance of retaliation or propensity for violence. I don’t. I try not to live my life in fear, but I don’t walk around blind either.

6:07

Fred:

Scott, that’s very prudent advice and a bit scary when you start thinking about the sophistication of some of these groups. And you’ve spent a lot of time, obviously, studying the radicalization of these individuals. So how are individuals recruited into these extremist ideologies? What’s your take from just living amongst them?

Scott:

It’s going to ebb and flow. Today, you get a lot of radicalization online. And that’s not just in the white supremacy world. That’s in the radical jihadist world. It’s in every world. It’s every extremist view. Look back in the 80s at your cults and your gangs, and then they continued on. You might see somebody, a common picture might look like somebody from a broken home. Maybe somebody that’s been bullied. doesn’t belong, an outcast, can’t get a partner. That’s what I was seeing a lot of. There are other ways to recruit, but some of these groups that I infiltrated, they’re openly recruiting online. Of course, you’re not going to see it on Facebook because they’ll get banned. You won’t see it on Twitter because they’ll get banned. But There’s all kinds of platforms that are out there, applications that are out there. And I don’t want to say they’re meant for nefarious activity because there’s plenty of good things that come with it too. But the general thought of these groups that I’ve been in and around is they’ll use Telegram because they don’t think the United States law enforcement officials can subpoena those records. They’ll use ProtonMail because they think, I mean, it’s overseas and it’s harder to get to. Just like VK used to be Russia’s Facebook. But I mean, there’s there was 4chan, 8chan, 12chan. I don’t have my finger on the pulse anymore. I mean, I’m sure I could go. I mean, I’m not sure I could go buy a burner phone and create accounts and start monitoring again. But as I say to some people, since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore.

Fred:

Yeah, probably a good choice, right?

Scott:

Yeah.

8:19

Fred:

Scott, we have many many listeners are a podcast that are protecting for example high net worth jewish billionaires. Jewish CEOs and so forth and. You know they’re very aggressively looking for threats that are directed towards him and rightfully so in our day and age especially with events that are unfolding in the middle east and so forth. So what would be some of your advice for best practices for cultivating and managing human sources that exist in security investigations or might be cognizant of adverse intelligence that they could develop? What would be some of your tips you would recommend?

Scott:

Well, there’s all kinds of avenues out there. I mean, you’ve got, you’ve got organizations like ADL and Southern Poverty Law Center and stuff like that, that, that you can go on their websites and learn, you know, ideology and signs and stuff like that. But if we’re going to get to today’s, uh, I’m not talking, there’s the white supremacy that you, that a lot of people, when they hear white supremacy, they think Ku Klux Klan. They think, um, hoods or Aryan nations out there picketing like a Charlottesville type thing. The newer movement, even though Christian identity is making a comeback, the newer movement is accelerationism. So accelerationism, the idea that that kind of ideology started kind of in the 80s. There’s a movie. It might be out right now. It’s coming out called The Order, and it’s based on that group. That’s kind of that that supremacist meets militia, maybe even a little bit of sovereign citizen in their anti-government, but also pro-white. And they were doing jobs like taking off bank armored cars and stuff. But now they call it accelerationism, and there’s a book out there called Siege. It was written by James Mason, who created Atomwaffen, a longtime white supremacist. And the book is basically a lot of articles. I mean, like he interviews and idolizes Charles Manson and all kinds of crazy things. But the accelerationist movement is this, and I’ll tie it back into the question you asked. The accelerationist movement is They don’t believe that there is a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse on its own, or either through man-made events, and they want to speed it up, hence accelerate. So you’re not going to see in these types of groups, and that’s what they call the siege movement, you’re not going to see the picketing. It actually chastises that. You’re not doing any good according to their belief system. out there with pickets and waving all this stuff and yelling, you’re better off doing guerrilla warfare type tactics where, you know, you poison a water system here, you take out a power grid here, you derail a train over here, you murder somebody here. And that’s what they do to create the Start of a racial holy war and and they want it and it always ends up with they want an ethno state So those types of people you’re not going to see coming necessarily with With you know, we’re in whatever it may be like a skinhead the old skinheads, you know, you got your white tank top you got you know, you’re you’re Doc Martens and depending on what you’ve done different color shoelaces and There’s stuff like that you can see, but a lot of this you may not. And there was even a sect that was kind of called an entryism. But you have clean cut white guys, no tattoos, clean shaven, nice haircuts, suits and ties. And they were trying to infiltrate government. They believed there was a political solution. So they’re trying to blend in. And again, I don’t think there’s a lot of afterthought because these guys, They were doing it. I mean, their idea was infiltrate the Republican Party and start turning things more pro-white, which doesn’t make a lot of sense to me because I’m pretty sure you and I would realize that if a restaurant only allowed white people, that’s going to be blasted all over media everywhere. Or they would infiltrate the Democratic Party and try to take it down from within. So there was that whole thing, too. But as far as security goes, it’s just again, you’re keeping your head on a swivel. But the best thing I can say is you take away opportunities. So if you’re going to be walking a route and I’ve done this, I’ve actually I got a good buddy of mine who’s retired FBI as well, SWAT, all kinds of accolades and and certifications. And he has a security company, and I’ll help out every now and then on playing close stuff for the Jewish community. So we’re out there walking the streets with them, and maybe we’re armed and they’re not. I mean, it’s protection detail, basically. But you’re just rounding it out and you’re looking for anything out of the ordinary and keeping people away, maybe. You know, again, you’re trying to take away opportunities for people to be able to do something bad to somebody.

14:05

Fred:

If you look at this from the standpoint of you’re managing a global security team for, let’s say, like a Fortune 500 company, how do you go about trying to ferret out some of these white nationalists or other extremists that might be inside your organization?

Scott:

Well, if they’re already in there, oof. Well, I’m hoping that your background checks and that may not find that you’re a white supremacist, you know, or that you’ve got some radical beliefs, but an interview process, that whole, I mean, it seems cliche, but that see something, say something. That still works. That’s how we get sources. That’s how we get sources of information. They may not be on the books, but maybe they know, you know, maybe when I was on joint chairs and task force, you get all these leads and you have to go interview people. Um, it, we used to be able to not go interview them, but excuse me, after the Parkland high school shooting, uh, it was determined that that calls about that kid had came in and it never made it to an agent or an investigator. So now we have to go out and interview everybody. But what they may be doing may be very well within their First Amendment rights. So my conversation may be something like this. I come to you and I go, hey, I’m Special Agent Scott Payne, FBI. We’ve got reports. I’m not going to tell you who reported it, but it’s crazy times right now. We’ve got reports that you’ve been posting some pretty radical stuff. I might even have an example of it there. Even if it’s still First Amendment protected, I can still say, hey, we’re just trying to make sure innocent people aren’t hurt. If you hear anything, could you give me a call? A lot of times that still works. They’ll still get calls. One of the guys I talk about in the book, He was reported by white supremacists. He was a white supremacist reported on because he was so radical. It scared the other white supremacists. They’re like, Hey, we think this guy’s getting ready to do something, like do something. And that’s how they came on our radar.

16:19

Fred:

Now, Scott, obviously working undercover with these violent groups as you have is extraordinarily stressful. I can only imagine. And what advice would you give to professionals in our business who face high stress environments and exposure all the time and distributing threats? I mean, how do you kind of manage that stress?

Scott:

It’s probably going to be a case by case basis because everybody’s different. But I do. I have taught for years a block of instruction and I cover a three year period of my life where I did too much. And I found my threshold. Does that mean I’m better than anybody else? Absolutely not. But I found mine, I would say. And it goes huge, especially in the military, law enforcement and even fire now. We’re number one in suicides. We’re number one for divorce We’re number one for alcoholism and pills or whatever else you want to throw in there now And we’re also number one for dying within five years after retiring So so who signs up for that, right? So you have that you have to find a way for yourself to recharge recharge your batteries you need to know how you relax and High stress environments, you know, the things that I’ve did with my job and other agents and whatever. I mean, if you’re on the SWAT team and you get called out for three days in a row, you’re eating crappy, you’re not sleeping good, but hopefully you’re in decent shape and that’ll help you last longer. But when all that’s over, you need to be able to recharge. You need to be able to decompress. And you’ve got to have ways to do that. I ran out of those ways. I forgot how to do it. And then on my road back to better and healing process, I started setting up accountability buddies and tripwires. just to have somebody say, hey, you need to go home. This job will still be here Monday. Go home, spend time with your family. Until I got good enough to be able to recognize it on my own. And I get the proverbial, nobody wants to go to the psychiatrist or psychologist in their department or in their agency. I get that because there’s horror stories out there where somebody leaked and you didn’t get promoted and whatnot. But just know there’s people out there you can go to. Um, and you need to be able to figure out how you’re going to rationalize all that in your own mind without it having an adverse impact on your psyche. Just like in the undercover world, we, we befriend and we betray. I mean, if that person that you’ve befriended and infiltrated and maybe even bond closely with for a year, two years of your life, uh, if they’re breaking the law at the, in the end, we’re going to be arresting that person and you’ve betrayed the friendship you built. So you need to figure out how you’re going to deal with all that mentally. And again, if you don’t have those tools in your box, go talk with somebody. If you meet a counselor or psychiatrist, psychologist, and it doesn’t go good, well, then go find another one. It’s okay. You may not click with all of them, but just know there’s help out there and you need to decompress and de-stress.

19:30

Fred:

Yeah, that’s very good counsel and sage advice from certainly someone who knows. Now, Scott, tell us about your book. Code name Pale Horse.

Scott:

Sure. The book is basically a synopsis of my life, but it’s all undercover. I mean, like chapter one is a quick overview of me growing up, what kind of lifestyle I had when I first actually started observing and realizing racism. Because as a white kid in the South, maybe growing up, I didn’t see it or I was blind to it. I talk about that. I talk about one of the, what I consider probably one of the first undercovers I did, even though I was still in true name, but I did it for my vice principal. And then chapter two is me becoming a cop and vice narcotics investigator. Some undercover stories there and three and on is all FBI cases, but the bookends are the white supremacy movement. And that was my name in a group called the base. My moniker was pale horse. So that’s kind of why we went with that title. And every other title’s been taken already, you know? Everything you can think of undercover has already been taken by somebody. But Code Name Pale Horse, it starts with me meeting face-to-face two members of this group called The Base, which is an accelerationist worldwide group of white supremacists who are accelerationists. And then you get to go through the journey with me of case to case. I did two years in the outlaws in Massachusetts. So you get some harrowing things, and I kind of try to let the reader know, like, you learn. Maybe you make a mistake on this case, but you learn from it, and you’re able to use that in another case. So that’s kind of like, how did I become Pale Horse? And the book ends with the base case, white supremacy.

21:30

Fred:

Scott, you made me think of a question that I have to ask. When you look at these groups like the base and the outlaws and so forth, when they’re conducting surveillance of a potential target, how sophisticated are they?

Scott:

It depends. Some are terrible. Some, like the kid I mentioned, I say kid, I mean, he was an adult, but in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, that guy, He had picked the synagogue, white supremacist. He had picked the synagogue. He knew they were having a family day. He wanted to shoot it up, but he didn’t know how. So that guy didn’t have a lot of good operational security. Um, or, uh, but he was looking for me. He was looking at me to tell him what he should do, you know, what cameras he should take out, provide him with the weapons. It’s that and the other. But if you get something like the base, well, now you’ve got. You’ve got a motley crew, if you will, of people from all over the world. They build their own file with, you know, it might be a little bit outdated, but it might be the United States Marines field manual, United States Army field manual, how to make grenades, how to make plastic guns, how to detect surveillance. It’s all racial holy war stuff. And then all the books and readings for for those white supremacists. So there, I mean, that group, the base, we trained, we trained a good bit. And I tell a lot of people, I went out there as a seasoned tactical person, a lot of training, a lot of certifications, active shooter instructor and all that stuff you said, but I couldn’t play that. But firearms and tactics training was led by a 19-year-old kid, and it was good. It was, it was, it wasn’t the best, but it was good. Uh, they could shoot fast with a, with a, uh, an AR 15, uh, carbine, they could shoot fast and accurate. Um, and their tactics they were studying, you know, a lot of it comes back to gaming. If you get online. There’s kids that are playing Rainbow Six or Call of Duty or Battlefield or whatever it may be, and they’re in groups and they’re talking. I’m not saying these kids are bad, but they’re learning clearing techniques and whatnot and ways to shoot faster.

23:59

Fred:

Wow. Yeah, that’s pretty scary. Now, as we wrap up here, Scott, I’m not putting you on the spot, but something tells me you can handle this question. What does Connected Intelligence mean to you? We ask that of every guest we have on our podcast.

Scott:

Connected Intelligence. Well, you hit me. It’s like a pop quiz here. Connected Intelligence to me. I mean, if I hear that, I’m thinking we’re working together. It kind of goes against what we found out after 9-11, right? Nobody was sharing information, right? And it still happens. It’s sad. You know, you’ve got agencies under the Department of Justice, even or just under the summit. We’re all under FBI. Let’s just bring it in even tighter. We’re all FBI. But this squad wants to work it as a drug case. Joint Terrorism Task Force says, well, they’re white supremacists. We’re going to work it. And then and then sometimes there’s inner fighting and it goes up the headquarters because everybody needs their stats and to get their funding. And it’s sad. But Connected Intelligence should be. We’re all sharing. And that’s the way I would me personally as a case agent, because you’re a case agent first in the FBI. That’s the only thing you’re required to be. All the other stuff is collateral duties until the day they say you’re full-time undercover, you’re full-time SWAT. But I would always come put everything on the table. If I’m working with DEA, I get it. They’re set up for nothing but drugs. When I’m working a drug case, we’re bouncing off the same target. You got de-confliction systems where we’re supposed to put our stuff in there so we don’t have what we call blue on blue, cops against cops. Um, but I would come hat in hand and say, look, this is what I’ve got. Even if they don’t want to, even if they want to play close to chest and be like me, me, mine, mine, I don’t want to share with you. Um, I would say, look, this is what I’ve got. And if they were further ahead, Hey, I’ll just hand you my stuff so it can fatten up your affidavit. Or maybe we can work together. Or if I was ahead and then it’s, then it’s my call, but I would think Connected Intelligence as we are, uh, sharing. and teaching each other, right? I mean, I remember, I mean, I’ve got daughters. I’m an idiot. I didn’t know Snapchat was like, not great for kids. Well, as soon as I find out, I come into the office and all the cyber squad, they’re like, Oh yeah, man, Snapchat is terrible for kids. And I’m like, well, could you spread that to the rest of the dadgum office? I mean, that’d have been good for me to know as a parent, you know? I know you know it, but I didn’t know it, you know?

Fred:

Well, I appreciate that, Scott. Scott Payne is the author of Codename Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis. Scott, thanks so much for being with us today on the Ontic Connected Intelligence Podcast.

Scott:

I really appreciate the opportunity, buddy.

Fred:

It’s all our pleasure. Thank you.